Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 32 of A Feast for Crows, in which we cover Chapter 44 (“Jaime”), Chapter 45 (“Samwell”) and the Epilogue.
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 44: Jaime
What Happens
Emmon Frey and Jaime are furious that Edmure Tully had allowed Ser Brynden to escape before surrendering the castle, but Edmure placidly tells them his agreement said nothing about surrendering his uncle. Jaime tells Emmon that Brynden will be found, but privately is doubtful of the fact. After Emmon leaves, Edmure tells Jaime that it makes him sick to see him standing in his father’s castle, but Jaime tells him he has “been despised by better men” than Edmure, and sends him away.
He sees Jeyne Westerling, Robb Stark’s widow, and her mother Lady Sybell. Jeyne flees sobbing when Jaime asks her if she is carrying Robb’s child, but Lady Sybell assures him that she made sure Jeyne was not pregnant, as Lord Tywin had bid her. She presses sharply for the fulfillment of the promises Tywin had made to her, including the release of her son Raynald, who had been at the Red Wedding and whom, she says, knew nothing of her “understanding” with the Lannisters. Jaime despises her as a “scheming turncloak bitch,” but says that he will uphold the bargain. The Westerlings and Edmure Tully leave the next day for Casterly Rock with an escort of four hundred men; Jaime instructs Ser Forley Prester to shoot them if they try to escape, including Jeyne.
He visits Edwyn Frey, who informs him that his father Ser Ryman was ambushed and hung on his way back to the Twins, even though he had been guarded by three knights and a dozen men-at-arms. Jaime doesn’t care that Ryman is dead, but worries that the raiders are growing ever more bold. Jaime tells Edwyn that Tommen requires the captives taken at the Red Wedding, and asks if Ser Raynald Westerling is among them. Edwyn says he took wounds trying to save Robb Stark and fell into the river; no corpse was definitively found.
Jaime declares he means to deal with Lord Tytos at Raventree himself, but privately is not sure he can match even that old man. He spars with Ser Ilyn, doing marginally better than previously, and afterward drinks with him, speaking openly of his love and hatred for his sister Cersei, and fantasizing about gelding Kettleblack before sending him to the Wall. Ilyn pantomimes a suggestion that Jaime should kill Cersei, but Jaime says Tommen would hate him for it, and Margaery would find a way to turn it to her advantage.
Ser Dermot returns the next day to report his men were set upon by hundreds of wolves, led by a giant she-wolf he claims is a direwolf, but Jaime sends him back out to search for Brynden anyway. He sends away the riverlords, promising them all the captives at the Twins will be ransomed. Strongboar he gives permission to go to Darry after the Hound, but warns him Beric Dondarrion is to be captured alive; he must be executed publically, or no one will believe he is dead. He sets the Tully garrison free over Lady Genna’s objections.
Jaime feels rather good about the situation as it stands: the war is nearly over, with Stannis sure to be destroyed either by Roose Bolton or the oncoming winter, and he had succeeded in taking Riverrun without raising arms against either Starks or Tullys. He reflects on what he should do once back in King’s Landing, whether to tell Tommen he is Jaime’s son, and who to get to be King’s Hand once Cersei and the current Council are set aside (Petyr Baelish is one of the men he considers).
He listens to Emmon Frey’s interminable speech to the castle denizens about his expectations of them as their new lord, and chats with Ryman Frey’s former singer, who tells him he decided to stay at the castle rather than go with Ryman when he left. He gives his name as Tom of Sevenstreams, but adds “most call me Tom o’ Sevens, though.”
Jaime dreams that night of his mother, who asks if he has forgotten her, and comments that he never really knew his father Tywin either. She says Tywin dreamed his son would be a great knight and his daughter a queen, and that “no one would ever laugh at them.” Jaime points out that he is a knight, and Cersei a queen, but his mother weeps and turns away. He wakes to find it is snowing, and thinks that winter is nearly here, and half the granaries are empty, with no hope now of further crops. He wonders how the realm will be fed now.
Riverrun’s maester, Vyman, comes to deliver a message from King’s Landing, which he apologizes profusely for reading. Jaime sees it is from Cersei, begging him to come and save her and saying she loves him thrice.
Vyman was hovering by the door, waiting, and Jaime sensed that Peck was watching too. “Does my lord wish to answer?” the maester asked, after a long silence.
A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. “No,” he said. “Put this in the fire.”
Commentary
Well, I guess that answers that question. I can’t say I’m terribly surprised, though I honestly did think last week that there was a chance Jaime would still feel compelled to go to her. But after the way he was so casually thinking about ousting her as Regent in this chapter, the end of it wasn’t much in doubt after all. It seems that the bloom is officially off the incestuous rose. So to speak.
Well, and I can’t say it probably wasn’t the smart thing to do, seeing as Cersei has a definite air of Impending Doom about her, and will most likely drag down anyone who takes her part with her. Though there’s certainly no guarantee Cersei won’t find a way to get her revenge on Jaime anyway, once she discovers that he has abandoned her. But really, she was so, so stupid, alienating Jaime the way she did, and yet she still doesn’t see it! Sheesh.
…Yeah, I guess if I were Jaime and Cersei’s dead mom I’d be pretty weepy myself, because damn.
Of course, Cersei is hardly alone in her stupidity, on the grand scale. Jaime’s thoughts about the oncoming winter here made me want to run through this series smacking just about every last character with a board, because seriously, you guys, how idiotic can you be, to engage in a disastrously bloody, expensive and disruptive civil war right before an apparently decades-long winter season? Have y’all even heard of the concept of “foresight”?
Ugh. These people are going to wish that all they had to deal with was mere famine once this shit really kicks in, because as far as I can tell, they’re looking at not so much “famine” as straight-up mass starvation, and who will give a shit who sits on a big, pointy, (inedible) metal chair then, eh? No one, that’s who. You morons.
Maybe the apocalypse that’s been pending all this time in this series will turn out to be a lot more mundane (if no less horrific) than the one I’ve been picturing. Though I’m sure the frozen zombies will also play their part. But if you ask me, they look like nothing more than overkill at this point.
(And seriously, I still don’t have a satisfactory explanation for how seasons could possibly work this way, but at this point I’m just sort of reduced to shrugging and being all “sure, whatever” about it, because, well, sure, whatever. Winter lasts decades, everywhere, and yet the human race (and, indeed, all life) on this sorry ball of mud somehow hasn’t gone extinct a hundred times over. Sure. Whatever you say. It’s MAGIC! *jazz hands*)
Bluh. Okay, let’s see, what else.
So, Brynden’s on the loose, I’m sure that will not turn out to be a giant pain in everyone’s ass at all. Really, he could end up anywhere. I wonder if he will hook up with Undead!Catelyn. I wonder if she’ll blame him for… something, and hang him, too, since that seems to be her jam these days. Good times!
And Jeyne’s mom was conspiring with Tywin Lannister? Did I know that before? I don’t think I did. Either way, wow, mom, way to be utterly shitty – as even your putative new allies concur. There are varieties of Shitty People I find to be shittier than traitors, but there really aren’t many. If Ser Reynald is in fact alive, I’m betting he’s not going to be very happy with Lady Sybell. Not to mention what will happen if Jeyne finds out. Girl will flip her shit, no lie. As well she should.
And is Jeyne pregnant? This is another thing which, if I got any indication on that front before now, it happened so long ago that I’ve totally forgotten it, so I just don’t know. I’d tend to think not, but there was just a little too much of a big deal made about the possibility of a Stark heir here, so I’m kind of on the fence about it. We’ll see.
Ser Ilyn smiled in a way Jaime did not like. An ugly smile. An ugly soul. “You talk too much,” he told the man.
*snort*
I mostly get why Jaime talks to Payne, since after all that’s probably about the closest thing to therapy he’s likely to get in Westeros, but I still think it’s foolish to trust the man with so much sensitive information no matter how much of a tongue he doesn’t have. Truth will out, and all. I just think he’s playing with fire being so open with a guy who so clearly despises him. I don’t know what to make of Payne’s suggestion that Jaime should kill Cersei, for one thing.
Also, Nymeria is still around, whoo. I am much less excited about her existence now that she and Arya are on completely different continents, but presumably at some point she and her super-pack will start influencing federal elections doing something more significant than just killing random sentries here and there. Presumably.
The bit with Tom o’ Sevens, I presume, was to indicate how Undead!Catelyn/Beric/whoever knew where to ambush Ryman, but of course the more importance thing is that now Tom is in a prime position to be the mole in Riverrun to… do whatever the raiders are going to do with that. Maybe Undead!Catelyn wants her dad’s castle back. Seems reasonable. Of course, I’m not sure Catelyn and “reasonable” are so much BFFs anymore, but still.
And, in conclusion, I’m thinking Jaime shouldn’t rest too much on his laurels, because fit is sure to hit the shan sooner rather than later. It’s a shame that I feel like his brief bout of Doing Things Right is almost guaranteed to get him kicked in the teeth at some point, but that is just how we roll in ASOIAF Land, yo.
Chapter 45: Samwell
What Happens
Ironmen swarm the Redwyne Straits, making the last part of the Cinnamon Wind’s voyage to Oldtown perilous, but they make it to Whispering Sound unscathed, though there is evidence all around of the ironmen’s depredations. They are boarded and inspected by a ship from Oldtown, whose captain tells them the reavers have tried to disguise themselves as trade ships and infiltrate the bay before. Aghast, Sam asks what Lord Hightower is doing, but the captain answers he is “locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells”, while the other lords try to raise a sufficient fleet to drive the ironmen out. The news makes Sam worry about Gilly and the babe’s safety even at Horn Hill, and he determines that he will escort Gilly there personally and ascertain its defensibility before leaving her there. He is tempted to keep Gilly with him in Oldtown, but knows he must let her go or abandon his vows.
Once docked at Oldtown, Sam leaves Gilly aboard the ship and hurries to the Citadel, hoping he will not be recognized on the way. He laments that he did not run off to become a novice there long before, and reflects bitterly that his father would likely not even have noticed if he had, as long as he hadn’t taken anything valuable with him. He goes to the Seneschal’s Court, but finds himself barred from seeing the Seneschal by the corrupt clerk. At length a youth of Dornish descent comes to find him and advises him that Lorcas won’t let him through without a bribe. He says his name is “Alleras, by some called Sphinx,” and Sam is jolted, remembering Aemon’s words (“The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.”)
Alleras questions him adroitly, and Sam soon finds himself telling the novice the entire story, save for the parts he is sworn to keep secret (Bran Stark, and the baby swap). After hearing the story, Alleras brings him to the Isle of Ravens to see “the Mage,” Archmaester Marwyn. On the way they run into Leo Tyrell, whom Sam knew from his childhood; Leo’s tongue is as cruel now as it was before.
Marwyn yanks Sam into his chambers, calling him “Slayer,” and Sam is astonished by the burning candle of obsidian in the room. Marwyn tells him the Valyrian sorcerers used the glass candles to see and communicate across great distances, and to see into men’s dreams. As his behest, Sam tells his story again, concluding that Aemon had been convinced that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of the prophecy, not Stannis or Rhaegar or Rhaegar’s son. Marwyn dryly quotes a philosopher who opined that “prophecy will bite your prick off every time,” and says it is good that Aemon died before he reached Oldtown, or the “grey sheep” would have had to kill him themselves. Sam is shocked, and Marwyn asks him, who does he think killed all the dragons?
“The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”
Marwyn says he will go to Slaver’s Bay in Aemon’s place, and attempt to beat there the “official” maester the grey sheep will send to Daenerys. He advises Sam to stay and forge his chain quickly, as he will soon be needed on the Wall, and to tell the other archmaesters only that he was sent to become a maester, and nothing about prophecies or dragons unless he wants poison in his food. Marwyn leaves, and Alleras confesses that he was sent to snatch Sam before he could talk to the Seneschal; Marwyn had seen Sam coming in the candle. Alleras offers to find him a sleeping place near his.
“My thanks.” There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, “My name’s not Slayer, truly. I’m Sam. Samwell Tarly.”
“I’m Pate,” the other said, “like the pig boy.”
Commentary
Crap crap crap crap brain why will you not work…
Because, Pate. I know I know him, I’ve met him before, but where? Ugh, I’m annoyed. Annoyed enough to look for him in the Dramatis Personae lists at the end of the book, but the only “Pate” I saw was one of the urchins at the crossroads inn where Brienne fought Biter…
Oh, wait, there’s another Pate listed at the Citadel, who tends the ravens, but he’s separate from Alleras, who’s also listed there. So… I’m totally confused. Maybe I haven’t met this person before? Why would Alleras say he’s “like the pig boy” when the actual Pate in the Citadel apparently tends the ravens?
Well, maybe he is the Pate from the crossroads inn, who may or may not have pig-related duties, but it seems like Alleras has been at the Citadel for a while, so that doesn’t seem kosher to me. Blah, whatever, I don’t know. Except that I know that Sam should probably trust his instinct not to trust this guy.
[ETA: The comments have alerted me that I in fact completely misread this scene. There are four people in the room, not three: Sam, Marwyn, Alleras, and another novice named Pate. I somehow read it as Alleras saying his real name was Pate, when it was actually a totally different person introducing himself. Oops?
The comments also say I met this Pate in the Prologue of AFFC, and that he is apparently supposed to be dead, and now that they mention that scene I sort of remember it, but I kind of wish y’all hadn’t told me what the significance of it was. There’s a fair chance I’ll be going back over all this stuff eventually anyway, and if I miss something the first time around, I miss it, you know?
And now back to my original commentary, where I was talking about Sam.]
Though, you know, way to go with your gut there, man – i.e. spilling your guts, everywhere, to this person you met literally two minutes earlier, what the hell, Sam. Paranoia, dude, it’s a survival skill, start practicing it, please.
In that vein, I am wholly baffled as to what to make of Marwyn and his bulldozer approach to taking over Aemon’s self-appointed task. Is he to be trusted? No idea. But I guess I have to give the guy points for brute efficiency.
And his little revelation here was nothing short of shocking, at least to me. The maesters killed the dragons and put the general kibosh on magic? Whoa.
I suppose symbolically that makes sense, assuming a “magic messes up all our nice empirical scientific method stuff and we don’t like it” attitude, but as a generally intellectually curious person, if not an actual academic, I find it rather startling that a group of people supposedly dedicated to the gathering and preservation of knowledge would even be constitutionally capable of systematically destroying (a) an entire species of animal, and (b) an entire category of human knowledge. Based on the scholars I’ve known, that would seem to go fundamentally against the grain.
But then, politics and power infects everything, and as I’ve had cause to learn, academia is not only as subject to this corruption as any other endeavor, it can actually be worse an influence there than in privately-owned corporate venues. Let’s just say, it’s possible to be megalomaniacal in the oddest ways. And I certainly must acknowledge that selective bias/slant/bigotry in the pursuit or preservation of knowledge is, sadly, not so much an issue as it is the norm.
History being written by the victors, and alla that.
In any case, it seems that Marwyn is the subversive element working from within that system, which (perversely perhaps) makes me more inclined to trust him than not. So hopefully he is actually going to be Dany’s ally rather than the opposite. Because even though I am unsure of whether her endeavor to retake the Iron Throne is ultimately a good thing or not, I still am rooting for Dany as a person, so no poison in her porridge, please.
Another thing I didn’t quite realize until now is that coming to Oldtown is actually something of a homecoming for Sam, which is why his dismay at what the ironmen are doing to the area is so visceral. I don’t know whether to anticipate or dread his upcoming visit to Ye Olde Homefront, but even if it is a disaster it should still be interesting to see how his family reacts to the new and at-least-theoretically-improved Samwell.
Although it seems that it might be a while before I get to see it. Because after this there was the (sort of) Epilogue.
Epilogue: Meanwhile, Back on the Wall…
Commentary
[I’m not going to summarize this because it is not actually text, but the upshot is that Martin says that, rather than cut off everyone’s story arcs halfway, he decided to more or less complete half of the characters’ arcs in AFFC, and complete the other half in the next book, A Dance with Dragons.]
Well, that was a rather startling breaking of the fourth wall, there.
Technically, I think, I was not supposed to know about this structural oddity until this point, but there had been enough references to it in the comments during this portion of the Read (inadvertent or otherwise) that I had more or less figured it out a while ago. Plus it was pretty obvious that a good many characters’ stories were simply being ignored during this book, so it seemed clear they had been shunted off for a later installment.
I also gather that there was (or is) quite a bit of controversy over whether this was a good decision or not. For my part, I certainly find it a little disconcerting, and it definitely introduces the possibility for (more) confusion, chronologically, but at the same time I have, ahem, rather a lot of experience at dealing with a huge, sprawling, and untidy narrative that is forced to yo-yo around its own timeline in order to keep up with its Cast of Thousands and keep them all on something approaching an even keel, story-development-wise.
I can’t know for sure at this point, obviously, but let’s just say that I can’t imagine that this will turn out any worse than what Robert Jordan attempted to do with the Wheel of Time’s chronology in Crossroads of Twilight (and if you don’t know what that is, just know that even Jordan admitted later that it had been a failed gamble). That might be damning with faint praise, but I managed to survive that and get through the rest of the WOT series just fine, so I’m betting I will manage to deal with this, as well.
And I won’t deny that this has a slight flavor to me of “I wrote myself into a corner somewhere and now I need time to unfuck it,” but you know, that happens. As long as Martin does manage to unfuck it, it’s all good. Only time (hah) will tell.
And thus we come to the end of A Feast for Crows! Which is so weird, y’all, I didn’t even realize I was at the ending until I was right on top of it.
I am… undecided on what’s going to happen next. I am not sure whether I am going to do a wrap-up post on AFFC, or just jump right into ADWD, or pause for that Princess story I think was published in the interim between AFFC and ADWD. Either way, there may or may not be a hiatus week before I start anything new, I haven’t decided yet. My brain is kind of fried right now. 
Whatever happens, I will let y’all know about it as soon as possible in the comments to this post, so watch this space.
And in the meantime, Talk Amongst Yourselves. I love you all, you’re like butter. More As It Develops. Until then, cheers!
There’s also another Dunk & Egg story as an option for what to cover next (and which was part of the original plan, as if that matters.)
Leigh, regardless of whether you do “Princess”, you definitely really, really, should read “The Mystery Knight” (can be found in *Warriors*) before the next book.
The stories in *Dangerous Women* and *Rogues* are good, but they slot in before or after book five equally well, IMO, whereas *Mystery Knight* really goes better before.
As for Pate, we have met at least two. I’d take a quick glance back at the reread if you want to find the other.
Leigh, you’re supposed to recognise Pate from the Prologue.
Winter lasts decades, everywhere, and yet the human race (and, indeed,
all life) on this sorry ball of mud somehow hasn’t gone extinct a
hundred times over. Sure.
I am not recalling; do we have anything definitive in the text to say this happens on the whole planet, as opposed to just in Westeros ?
There is another Dunk and Egg story out there known as “The Mystery Knight”.
@3
From more then half a year ago is not the easiest thing.
Wow, the end snuck up on me too.
Nothing really to say at this point, but various parts of this post made me chuckle out loud :)
I occasionally wonder if Marwyn is the one on the up and up (although it certainly looks that way at the moment)…it could be we’re just getting the typical ‘rebel working for corrupt organization’ trope subverted. If he were a villain, that’s what he’d WANT you to think ;)
Also, FYI, there was another novice in the room with Alleras and Marwyn; that’s the one Sam mislikes and who identifies as Pate like the pig boy.
It shouldn’t be spoilers to say reread the prologue right?
Also Sam’s Dad is the nice chap, Lord Randyl Taryly, Brienne met up in…umm…bad with names, Maindenpool or something up in the Riverlands, so he’s not home at the moment.
Leigh – you need the Mystery Knight before ADWD. Stick to the plan, yo!
Re the other novellas from DW and Rogues, judgment call on whether to do now or later. I’d vote doing the DW one now, if I’m given a vote.
Re Pate – look back at the Prologue in this here book and prepare to be at least a bit creeped out.
Are you deliberately avoiding returning to any part of the book(s) you’ve read before to check for connections? If you are that’s find, but if not, you can find out what’s going on with Pate by re-reading the Prologue to AFFC. It’s been a while, so I can see how you’d forget.
So… Sybell essentially whored her daughter to Robb on Tywin’s orders, in order to offend Walder Frey, in order to get Frey to abuse guest right without Frey knowing about the arranged seduction. Damn, That is some next level scheming.
<i>”Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”</i> So why can’t he be trusted? What’s in his blood? Is he a Targaryan scion?
Roll over for speculation on Alleras: When Doran Martel was arresting the Sand Snakes, they discussed the fourth daughter Sarella. He said “leave her to her game.” There has been some speculation that Alleras is Sarella in disguise as a boy as “Alleras” is “Sarella” spelled backwards. Both claim to have a Dornishman as a father and a Summer Islander as a mother.
Wow! 3 at once!
Jamie – Spot on
Sybell – a passing reference was made but Tywin was still alive, so yes, it’s been a long time.
Winter – How the grand tress of the North last, I have no clue. But the southern kingdoms are not hit as hard as the North. Guess that’s why they don’t object to cannibalism the way they object to guest rights being violated. Everyone knows, if the winter is bad enough, you resort to eating the meat that is left.
Samwell: Fingers crossed he is a quick student! That chain is going to be hard to forge.
And welcome to the ‘in media res’ of the Song. It makes me really glad that I only started reading GRRM about 2-3 years before ADWD came out. I really do feel for the fans who have been with the series since the beginning. If you ever do decide to re-read the books, the joint reading others have talked about of AFfC and ADWD really is a good way to enjoy the story.
One interesting tidbit in the Jaime chapter is that he essentially unknowingly told the Brotherhood of Banners mole amongst the Riverrun Frey contingent that his aunt Genna was pretty much the brains of the family, as opposed to Emmon, when Tom was talking about wanting to stay there.
I’m sure there’s no chance he’ll wind up regretting that decision. Freys get killed — he’s just worried about how brave the bandits must be getting. But things likely would be just a bit different if it’s a Lannister on the chopping block. Or gallows pole, I guess, in this instance.
#3 – I had to go back and skim the Prologue when I finished just to remember who Pate was. (And it had only been about a week for me.)
I think a break would make sense, but I would push it out until we catch back up to where we are. Treat the first however-much of the book as a continuation of this book.
I hadn’t caught the pregnancy before, but it reads like Jeyne was pregnant but miscarried as a result of her mother’s actions (moon tea in her soup?). Also, I’m relying on the summary, but are Jaime’s only objections to killing Cersei that it would upset his son and give Margery a chance at power? It sounds like he doesn’t really have a problem with ending his sister.
Also, clothes are hung, people are hanged.
IThe Princess and the Queenwas not published in the interim between AFFC and ADWD, it was only published late last year, while ADWD was published in 2011.
However, I think that you should read the third Dunk & Egg story, The Mystery Knight (published in 2010), before reading ADWD.
There are four people in archmaester Marwyn’s room: Sam, Marwyn, Alleras, a dark-skinned Dornishman who led him there, and Pate, a “pale blond youth about Sam’s age”.
Pate was the POV character from the prologue of the book, a novice in the citadel who steals a key from one of the archmaesters and trades it to a person calling himself an Alchemist for a golden dragon. He then drops dead after biting the coin to see if it’s real, making Sam meeting him here mighty suspicious. Oh, and the Alchemist guy looks exactly the same as Jaquen (the one who owed Arya three lives) after he changed his face.
By the way, we have heard of Marwyn before. Mirri Maz Duur, Dany’s erstwhile slave/family doctor/abortionist/dragon-waking funeral pyre fuel(woman has quite a CV) mentionned that she met him in Asshai by the Shadow and learned westerosi medicine from him.
[Moderator note – message whited out for spoilers.)
This was the happy ending by the way.
I would love a week taking stock of the book, maybe some predictions. But you should definitely read the Mystery Knight next! Quork!
Oh, and I definitely needed a re-read of the prologue the first time to understand what’s going on with “Pate”. But I still didn’t catch the Sarella=Alleras thing because I had forgotten about Sarella, who was mentioned halfway through the book. (Roll over to read; see comment #10)
I’m surprised that it hasn’t been mentioned yet..but Marywn was referenced in the first book by Mirri Maz Duur, hence why she could speak the common tongue and knew of Westeros There must have been some Magicians Country Jamboree and Convention at the Essos Airport Hilton at some point.
not a spoiler at all, so Leigh would be amused to know.
Well…I’m not sure what to say. Let’s go in order:
Jaime: This chapter just (mostly) wraps up Jaime’s voyage througb the Riverlands, and more importantly completes his story arc of separation from Cersei. He is now at the nadir (or the apex, depending how you view it).
I don’t believe Jeyne is pregnant, I have never believed she is pregnant, her mother gave her moon tea to ensure she was not pregnant while pretending it was fertility drugs. The hope for the continuation of the Starks rests solely on Bran and Rickon (well, plus Sansa and Arya for the continuation of the line, but not the name, which has supposedly lasted over 8000 years).
Tom-o-Sevens! I love that he’s been playing possum this whole time with the Freys and Westermen, sending back recon to the BWB and leading to the deaths of multiple Freys, and yet they still keep him around, never suspecting him. I’m sure UnCat et al would welcome Brynden into their band.
Samwell: So Leigh, you misread something pretty severely here, and it totally screwed up your interpretation at the end. Pate is not Alleras, they are 2 different people. Alleras brought Sam to see the Mage, and there was a pale boy there also, who introduced himself to Sam, saying “I’m Pate, like the pig boy”.
We met Pate in the prologue of this book. He was in love with Rosie from the inn, and everyone made fun of him because he was useless at everything, and he agreed to smuggle a key to the alchemist, who had a familiar face to us but you never placed it. Then Pate died, and thus ended the prologue. And of note, Pate HATED any references to “Pate the Pig Boy”. Yet now, someone with his face introduces himself as “Pate, like the Pig Boy”. This is clearly not the same Pate that was in the prologue, yet he has replaced him in the citadel.
The logical assumption is that the Alchemist has replaced Pate, somehow changing his face, which should help you remember where we first saw him.
I love the Mage. He’s awesome.
I won’t get into Alleras, but Aemon’s dying comments about “the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler” has led many fans to speculate that Alleras is in fact a character that has been referenced in other chapters (remember, he is half Dornish, half Summer Islander).
We have seen that members of the Targaryan clan sometimes had true visions, so Aemon’s words may indeed have been some sort of prophecy, and I would trust them.
@@.-@ The Summer Islanders Sam was travelling with come from a land called Islands of Always Summer. So, my guess would be that even if winter came for decades in some parts of the world, winter means different things for different climates. To me, in the southern part of Brazil, winter means a fall of just 10 degrees Celsius in the average temperature and a drier climate where there can be up to 3 months without a rain. To someone living in northern Brazil, there’s no discernible difference between summer and winter, especially if they’re near the equator. To you people who (mostly) live in North America and Europe, winter means snow and not planting anything, but to us winter doesn’t mean the complete lack of crops. And to some people living in the Artic or the Antartic, winter means 6 months of night. So I guess winter in ASOIAF also differs depend on which part of the world someone is living in. Probably the tropical and equatorial areas become net exporters of food during winter and Westeros becomes a net importer. That is, if trade still happens.
A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck. “No,” he said. “Put this in the fire.”
Now that was cold, Jaime. (To quote you Leigh^^) Rather satisfying though.
Note that GRRM says in that afterword he hopes ADWD will be out in 2005. It came out in mid 2011. That’s the joke.
Re the Epilogue – the controversy is that he assumed he’d get ADWD out in the next year (2006) when it took five additional, painful to wait, years.
Right 2006 let’s not make it more scary than it was. It was plenty scary though. (Says the gall who read all of the series in 2012. :P)
Potential spoiler re Alleras on @18. Mods – please bring the white out.
@21- exactly. I live in Florida and winter for us is two weeks where I have to wear a jacket
Late in ASOS, you began warming to Jaime partly because (along with giving Brienne a quest), he begun displaying evidence of giving “exactly zero fucks” what people thought of him. Since then, I believe he’s going in the opposite direction. True, he left an uflatteringly-honest record in the White Book, and his ties to Cersei, Tyrion, and Tywin – the only people whose opinions had previously mattered to him – have been severed various ways. But now that he must solve problems with words instead of a sword and is more into treating people justly, the opinions of his friends, foes, and political allies matter more. Though it’s partly a survival mechanism – plenty of politicians have suffered grave (hah) consequences of blithely doing as they pleased.
Casterly Rock oubliettes, sky cells, ice cells, black cells…every dungeon seems to have its own unique type of horrors.
Jaime wanted to strangle Sybell with her golden necklace. Did he notice Shae’s corpse in the room with Tywin’s, or was she covered up before he arrived? I don’t remember.
I wish there were someplace the sweet, lonely children of Westeros could go and be raised together – Joy, Tommen, Shirreen…
I want a nickname involving “fish.” Wah.
Fun fact: Along with Leo, two Tyrell-born masters are currently at large. That family has men to spare – of those profiled in the AFFC appendix, I think it’s second only to House Frey in currently quantity of males able to carry on the family name.
“Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no swords of his own.” – Jaime’s thoughts.
*facepalm*
Ilyn doesn’t “tell long, pointless stories” when drunk, but Jaime does.
So, Tom O’ Sevens has a cozy place to spend the winter while the rest of the band is out doing the dirty work. Singers often have very bad luck in this series, but that opportunistic scoundrel has got it made.
I noted that the Summer Islanders’ feather cloaks were “only worn onshore.” Are they dressing up to maintain an image for outsiders, or do they pragmatically wear them at home as well, just not while working onboard ships?
Much as I love (fictional) dragons, I would have trouble faulting the maesters for wanting to rid their territory of giant fiery flying death machines.
The UNspoiled hosts compared Emmon’s speech to college orientation (also “Take that, Dad, you and my 70 brothers!”) and the Citadel’s waiting room to the DMV. Also:
Leo calling Sam a whale was schoolyard-level unimaginative; he “should’ve said something like ‘You’re bigger than Baelor the Blessed’s humility.'”
“Euron’s sigil is too complex. An eye alone worked for Sauron – it should work for you.”
@Mods: I emailed the webmaster a couple days ago, but my account remains blocked. :-(
@10
I think Tywyn’s original plan didn’t necessarily involve a Red Wedding. Probably he offered Sybell a chance to improve her family’s lot if she could make her daughter and Robb Stark marry. That marriage would break the Frey-Stark alliance (that depended on Robb marrying one of the Frey women and Arya marrying one of the Frey boys) and make Robb’s situation much weaker. Loss of the Freys meant not only loss of men, but also the passage to the North. Robb would be isolated without reinforcements and could be defeated in battle by a larger force. The Red Wedding came as a bonus, probably an idea by Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, of ending things quicker. Tywyn, being the realpolitik fan he is, accepted the plan. But Robb’s marriage to Jeyne Westerling weakens Robb’s position without the need of a Red Wedding, so I guess that’s how far Tywyn initially planned. And that would also explain why Sybell wasn’t warned about the Red Wedding and sent her son to it.
Not that I’m your manager or anything, but I think you’re doing the third Dunk & Egg story next.
Winter lasts decades, everywhere…
Eh, If I recall correctly a decade long winter would be exceedingly rare even in Westeros, like maybe once or thrice in recorded history before. 2-5 years seems the “norm”. But for some reason this one is foretold to be another biggy.
Oh, yeah … Winter has come. *dundunduuuun*
@20: I don’t know if there’s proof of it, but it’s been speculated that, if push comes to shove and a line needs to be continued through the female line, the child may get the mother’s last name. What I do remember GRRM confirming in one of his Q&As is that lower born husband may take the last name of a highborn wife. We should also remember that bastards may get legitimized by a king and get the last name of the highborn parent (even though that’s usually the father, but we rarely see highborn women with bastards that they’re not passing on as children of a husband).
And then there are Mormont women, who play by their own rules and have children even though they are not married as far as we know, wave away the question of who the father is with “eh, it was a bear”, and the children have the last name “Mormont” instead of “Snow”. But it’s been argued that it’s probably only possible because the Bear Islands are isolated and so poor in resources that mainlanders aren’t trying to get their hands on the islands through (possibly forced) marriage, as we’ve seen happen with Lady Hornwood and Sansa Stark, among others.
Remember the story of Bael the Bard? If some of it is true, the Stark line at one point survived through the female line, through a bastard son of a daughter of a lord of Winterfell (king in the North?). Sure, it could be completely made up, but it’s unlikely that GRRM put that story there for no reason. In addition to hinting at things like R+L=J or Bran and Rickon hiding in the crypts during ACOK, it hints that there may have been other means of continuing the line for thousands and thousands of years, rather than an uninterrupted series of male heirs. (Roll over to read theory/speculation)
Jaime – competence porn actually paid off in a pretty good result all around. Hope it lasts.
Sybelle – that Tywin is a mean and forward looking schemer – was, I mean.
Brynden and Uncat – they’ll get along fine. I’d worry that they’d both team up to go after Jon Snow, whom neither of them trusts.
@28: I think you’re right. I also tend to think, though there’s no evidence either way, that the Red Wedding was Roose Bolton’s idea, that Walder Frey jumped on because he’s as stupid as he’s proud. Roose may have even cleverly insinulated it and made Walder Frey think it was his idea. I have no proof either way, I just think that Roose profited the most from it, jumping ship at the right time when he judged that the tide was turning against Robb Stark, betraying and killing him and getting named the Warden of the North, but escaping most of the hatred and contempt that all of Westeros has for the Freys now, because they were the ones who broke the guest right, not Roose.
@30 Correct. The summer before the story starts is considered a very long one, and it lasted 10 years approximately. So a very long winter would last 10 years also. And during the Long Night, the winter when the Others came, it was said that generations of men lived and died without seeing the sun. So a winter that lasts more than three decades (a generation is 20 years, right?) would be considered abnormal enough to become the matter of legends.
Whoops! Post edited above re: Pate.
“I still don’t have a satisfactory explanation for how seasons could possibly work this way…”
I’m sure this has been debated to death elsewhere but a planet with a wobbly axis is a possibility. A star with inconsistent output is probably a better explanation. (Our own star has its ups and downs and may have caused the ice ages).
Vernor Vinge wrote a novel set on a plant with a start that periodically turns itself off for a decade.
1. I think Jeyne does know about Sybelle’s treachery – and that she did freak out.
2. I don’t think Ser Ilyn despises Jaime; I think they’re sort of vitriolic buds at this point – they are both happier out in the field instead of trapped in King’s Landing, and both are outcasts of sorts.
3. I think splitting the narrative into FFC/DWD makes perfect sense, but it was not done properly for reasons that are far too numerous and pedantic to get into here. The short version: there’s a bloat in both books, though that’s less about splitting the narrative than GRRM writing himself into a corner and spending 1,500 pages unfucking himself from it. (He himself called it the “Meereenese Knot”).
4. One particular instance bothers me because it screws up what might have been a great narrative arc. //Arya’s two DWD chapters really belong in FFC. Not only does it provide some closure to her Braavos character arc, it also calls back to the FFC prologue and ties in with Pate’s return in Sam’s chapter.//
5. Marwin almost certainly is not to be trusted, but that doesn’t necessarily make him a villain. He has his own agenda and is working from a limited perspective – that can cause all kinds of problems even with the best of intentions.
@36 In response to people spaculating about binary systems and wobbly axial tilts, Martin gave an interview to a spec fic magazine in which he said that, this series being more fantasy than sci-fi, the seasons have a fantasy explanation, not a sci-fi one.
We can add Brynden to the list of men the Night’s Watch very much needed but that never made it, along with Ned, Theon, and Tyrion.
Near the beginning of ASOS, Jeyne tells Catelyn that she and Robb “try” for an heir “most every night” and that her mother gives her herbs to help. Contrast that with her mother’s statement here. Scheming, indeed.
Regarding why seasons would work like that, I had a theory, for some time, that there were lots of active volcanoes in the world and they expelled enough ash in the atmosphere in irregular intervals to create mini ice ages. Basically, just like the Tambora created the “year without summer” in 1816, these volcanoes would create lots of years without summers and that would be the seasons the Westerosi called winters.
But GRRM has said that the reason behind it is magic/fantasy and not so much sci fi, so I think my theory is bust.
I also never thought that Ilyn disliked Jaime. I mean, it’s clear Ilyn is a…well, instert very bad word here…so he’s just a dick to Jaime as he would be to anyone.
@37
Re: those whited-out chapters, I think they fit well in the next book, for reasons I’m going to leave in the spoiler thread.
I’ve always suspected the winters only get extreme as the Walkers get more active, does no one else? There are constant reference to “Summer Snows” so it’s always seemed to me that they have regular seasons as we do, but once the Walkers are active, a mini Ice Age begins. Since it’s so extreme, that Ice Age in itself is considered “Winter” and everything else, even the parts that include what is the actual season of Winter, is called “Summer”
@33
If you care, there’s a post in the blog Race for the Iron Throne about the battle between Tywyn Lannister and Roose Bolton in the first book, AGOT. The post is in the re-read of the Tyrion chapter that describes the battle. The owner of that blog, along with the owner of another blog, analyzed the battle and how historical battles went and have come up with a theory that Roose Bolton had already kind of turned against Robb Stark in the first book. According to them, he mishandled the battle to get a lot of Stark casualties amongst the men that would be more loyal to Robb. He would do so again in the battle of Duskendale (that happened a little before the Red Wedding). Basically, they argue, Roose’s plan was to have more Stark loyalists killed and not Bolton loyalists, so that when Roose made his move he’d have an advantage in the number of soldiers. There are lots of arguments going for that theory, but still, it’s just a theory. And clearly Roose hadn’t entered into conversations with Tywyn Lannister by that time.
#45: Two sides to that argument, and it would go in what type of interests Bolton was thinking on. Was it “I will one day betray the Starks” or was it “These men are my rivals, they bleed while I rise in influence with my liege in the future”.
On the topic of season and its survival: We actually see in a POV of Bran the nobles of the North hammering out details on how to survive the winter. They would assign a certain number of their harvests, something like a fifth or a quarter, to be set aside in some universal pool to be tapped when necessary. Furthermore, Winterfell was able to maintain some “Glass Gardens”, essentially medieval green houses, which used the warmth of natural springs to grow food even during winter. It’s just that Winterfell was sacked so the central planning went out the window.
The people of Westeros probably do have methods to plan and survive winter, but the war that was perpetrated by the nobility disrupted it all.
Chapter 44 — Jaime:The Blackfish has swum away. That is an entirely good thing and should add some spice along the way as I would guess that he isn’t going to just get recaptured.
Jaime interviews Jeyne and her mother and it becomes very clear that the mother was deeply into betraying Robb and company. If Jeyne had been pregnant, the mother “took care of it.”
Cat&Co. have hanged Ryman Frey and his party. Small loss that and everyone seems to share in that thought.
There is ambiguity as to Raynald Westerling’s fate. I’ll go with him being alive in the absence of evidence.
Ha! Jaime has a conversation with the singer Tom of Sevenstreams. If I am remembering right, this Tom is the same singer who was with the Brotherhood and I am betting he is the mole inside the castle who let the news of Ryman’s small party slip out.
Jaime has an odd dream that I sense is more of a sending. Peck brings him Cersei’s letter and Jaime tells him to put it in the fire. Very interesting, Cersei will be getting no help from that quarter.
It should be noted that when “Pate” introduces himself as “like the pig boy,” he’s referring there to Spotted Pate the Pig Boy, a commonly-known Westerosi folk hero, and the subject of many a yarn.
Chapter 45 — Samwell:Sam continues on the Cinnamon Wind. They see longships and signs of a sea battle as they near Oldtown. Sam is brought to Archmaester Marwyn and tells his tale. Marwyn makes the interesting statement that the “grey sheep might have had to kill him” and:
Very interesting as it implies a fight of science vs magic and the science was quite purposefully planned to kill the dragons and bring down magic. That’s a whole layer more of plot and complications to come out.
Pate — Pate, we thought Pate got killed in the prologue and so either he didn’t or this Pate here is really a faceless assassin (or someone else). Gee, let’s put all the complications here.
Meanwhile, back on the wall GRRM gives us a brief explanation of where all the other chapters were.
Reading these and not looking ahead or at the table of contents makes for a surprising ending in that there are still like 60 pages left chock full of appendices and such. In other words, surprise, book’s done.
@45, It’s been mentioned that the Bolton’s are like the ancestral enemies of the Starks. There was a line in passing that all the great houses had their internal rivals. The Casterleys had the Lannisters, the Gardners had the Tyrells, and the Starks had the Boltons.
@50: That sounds like Jaime’s line about powerful lords being the envy of their vassals. It was something along the lines of :
Stark-Bolton
Tully-Frey
Lannister-Reyne/Tarbeck
Tyrell-Florent are the other prime example.
Not sure who would be rivals to Baratheon in Stormlands or to Arryn in the Vale (Royce are the leading second family but they are loyal) or to Dorne (not enough info to discuss without spoilers).
@50 Yes, but the Gardners weren’t enemies of the Tyrells. The Tyrells were their stewards, but there was some intermarriage among the noble families of the Reach. Which is why the Tyrells still trace their lineage back to Garth Greenhands, even though they were not the ruling family throughout history. But they weren’t enemies of the Gardners.
The Stark-Bolton friction HAS been constant for thousands of years, and Roose and Ramsey have finally managed to gain the North for the first time in thousands of years, though thankfully there are still 4 Starks around (at least. Plus Jon and possibly Benjen?)
I thought Lady Olenna was related to the Gardners through her Redwyne lineage, not the Tyrell marriage.
Both House Tyrell and House Redwyne existed when the Gardeners ruled the Reach, to the best of my knowledge, and I believe both intermarried with House Gardener. But House Gardener definitely was wiped out during Aegon’s conquest (the last male member died during the Field of Fire), and their Steward, Harlen Tyrell, surrendered to Aegon and was named the new Lord of the Reach.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Gardener
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tyrell
In Scotland, where a brotherless woman can inherit a title in her own right, her eldest son (or indeed daughter if there’s a second generation with no male heirs) has to take her surname to inherit the title. The current Earl of Erroll is Merlin Hay, but his father’s name was Moncreiffe. They were a partcularly unusual family, as both parents were not only titled but clan chiefs: the mother’s rank being higher, the eldest was her heir and the second son the father’s (two titles can pass to one person, but not two chiefships – clans are discrete entities and can’t be combined).
Dang it, Jaime. Don’t burn the letter, that’s a waste! Just remove the ink and now you have a paper. Paper is expensive, yo. Seriously, Jaime, think.
But nooooooooooo, mister I’m-so-rich-I-can-destroy-stuff has to tend his fire.
I see where Joffrey got his dislike for expensive and rare books from.
a couple of thoughts on your winter concerns. The winters dont actually last decades (other than the dreaded winter the last time the others came 8,000 years ago) though they do tend to last a couple of years, yes.
In terms of how you survive, you do have multiple harvests and you save enough food to last out the winter. Essentially the winters are longer, but so are the summers. If you remember in book two theres a Bran chapter where they talk about setting aside x portion of each harvest and worrying about whether there would be a last crop in the fall.
It is also worth noting that not all ‘winters’ are made the same. By that I mean, keep in mind Westeros is the size of south america. A winter in the north is not the same as a winter in dorne. The same way winter in canada isn’t the same as winter in say panama. They all get winter, but it means different things.
I would imagine that dorne for example rarely if ever gets snow even in winter. In my head I think of them as a florida sort of climate. The riverlands and vale probably have ‘winters’ simialr to the northern US. The reach/westlands/stormlands somewhere between the two.
Its also why the north is so lightly populated. Remember, the north is the size of half a continent. Half of south america by itself.
Yet its population is about 5 million (I get that figure by comparing the number of soldiers the north is capable of raising (capable not what rob did) and then comparing that to real life high midieval society and what percentage of soldiers THEY could raise and then extrapolating to the north).
So if we assume the north has roughly 5 million people in it….. thats the equivilant of midieval england. OR about 1/4th the populatio of midieval france.
So lets think of that for a second. The north has the population of midieval england. And yet….. it is 76 times as big as england (GRRM has compared the north to half the size of south america).
So with the same population as midieval england its 76 times as big. Thats signfiigant for our discussion of winter, because it shows you how dispersed the community is. The north, which would be hit the hardest by winter, can likely in large part supliment the crops they preserved with hunting and the like, since the population density of the north is like 2 people per a square mile (Granted, im sure there are regions with much higher density… such as white harbor and winterfell. And others largely unpopulated such as the wolfswood.) Even if we are generous and say my numbers of peopel were low… you are still look at most at a population density of 2.5 people per a mile in the north.
That, for the record, i roughly equuvilent to northern sweden:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrbottens_l%C3%A4n
Im sure those northerns near the rivers and oceans would rely heavily on fish (and its why im sure population is heavier in those regions. Look at the clumping of major castles and such. Im sure its more than just defense that makes so much of it border water). Look at how the region i linked survived the prob just as harsh in intensity if shorter winters. Some tough grains like barley. Lots of fish on the coasts. Hunting. And animal herding. They could susist in those temps because they had more land to gather it out of if that makes sense.
Aaanyway my point being is that the key explanation (other than just they grow lots of crops) to your question in the read, is the sheer size of the landmass in those areas hit hardest by the winters. Those further south would have the summer temps to grow LOTS of crops and save up, or would (in the dorne area) have milder winters.
ohh also to add to the above. I am also convinced that the cycle of the seasons (i.e long winters versus short) corresponds to the influence or lack therof of the others. Just my opinion.
Apropos of not much: I’ve been rereading ACOK and noted when Tyrion offered condolences on Joffrey’s loss (i.e. of his “father”) and Joffrey didn’t know what he meant…rather like the AFFC scene where Jaime thought Genna was sorry for the lost of his hand, not Tywin. Like father, like son.
This was the first Sam chapter where we learn that his months and months of exertion, seasickness, and rationed or absent food are taking a toll on his weight. Also the one where he says he’s not a craven, even if he thinks he’s lying; the impacts of the latest such accusation from Dareon may be slowly receding.
re: seasons, surprising lack of extinction
I assume, weird-ass wonky decade seasons aside, that the general rules of climate-y climateness still apply, meaning that there are climate zones towards the equator with a complete lack of seasonal change altogether or very mild seasons that allow for agriculture all year round. Highgarden might already be far enough to the South to keep producing food even in winter. Which might also explain why the Tyrells apparently out-defecate the Lannisters in the gold department.
So if you’re winter afflicted, as long as you keep up trade with those regions and have large stores of food to help you bridge the time between traders you’re good.
That still means that waging war so close to the next winter is insanely stupid, but at least any extinction related events would be confinded to the Northern half of the hemisphere. Yay for only getting half of humanity killed!
If we believe Marwyn–that there is some sort of science vs magic fight going on in the background, the Doom of Valyria bears thinking about. Natural or artificial.
We seem to now have another axis added to the power structures. Before we had Ice (represented by the Others) and Fire (humans, R’hlloe, etc) and tied to climate change.
Now, we have Science (represented by the Maesters) and Magic (dragons, mages, gods, etc) being represented as being in active conflict. The question of whether these are distinct elements of conflicts or all parts of the underlying picture will bear watching.
@62 stevenhalter
“Now, we have Science (represented by the Maesters) and Magic (dragons, mages gods, etc.)” being represented as being in active conflict.
Don’t forget Idiocy (represented by bloody everyone)…it’s winning after all…
Great job on powering through with your special Leigh-sauce! I enjoy these reviews even when the subject matter make me need many scalding showers. And I learn so much from all of you posters. You stretch my mind and that is beyond price. My gratitude to all.
@58: The numbers that the North can raise is an issue with some contention. Robb Stark Raises eighteen thousand men initially, but only because that is the lowest amount that he was able to reliably raise in the short time in order to respond to the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands and his father’s imprisonment. There is a mention in ACOK, by Rodrik Cassel, that if Robb asks they would raise a new host to reinforce him in the south. The only problem was that with the central authority left in the North, Rodrik as Castalen and Bran as Prince, was betrayed and decimated by the treachery of Theon and Botlons. Without this authority there is little way for the other lords to communicate effectivly throught the chaos.
@65: Well aware of that. I actually went with the number of 50,000 for the north to raise not 18,000 since general accepted theories has that the norths max is in the 40-50 range. I believe GRRM has confirmed that at qnas as well.
It’s a shame that I feel like his brief bout of Doing Things Right is
almost guaranteed to get him kicked in the teeth at some point, but
that is just how we roll in ASOIAF Land, yo.
Um, ya, given Jaime’s good intentions and the fact that the things he does are emotionally satisfying for us readers, it is easy to overlook that he is only marginally more competent than Cersei ;). That’s the PoV magic – when a sympathetic PoV pats himself on the back for his competence, we tend to accept it uncritically.
Like when Tyrion hatched his plan to track down whichever member of the small council was tattling on him to Cersei, and threw Pycelle into the Black Cells. Completely unnecessary, as Pycelle was a staunch Lannister supporter, and Tyrion made him an enemy instead of working around the fact that, of course, after one-and-half decades of supporting Cersei, Pycelle would be inclined to continue to do so, at least at first, until he could be won over. While LF was and is an enemy of Lannisters and of Tyrion in particular, and this plot didn’t cause him to reveal himself. Oh, well.
But objectively speaking, a lot of/most of things that Jaime has done or wanted to do since coming back to KL were dumb. And yes, I assume that it is going to catch up to him sooner or later.
I.e.:
Wanting to make his relationship with Cersei public – would have re-ignited the war and likely destroyed them, their children and maybe even House Lannister.
Coming clean with Tyrion about Tysha – really? How selfish and callous was that? Tyrion was already having the worst time of his rather unhappy life, would have to live in exile and in fear of assassination from now on, so Jaime decided just to pile _even more_ misery on him? Just so that _he_ could unburden himself? Urgh.
Refusing to become Cersei’s Hand – as a result, Cersei was running unchecked until captured by the High Septon and has severely, possibly fatally endangered Tommen, whom Jaime wants to protect! Not to mention the barely pacified realm, causing even more unnecessary casualties.
And now – yea, Jaime’s method of convincing Edmure to yield was somewhat clever, though not without some major oversights, such as fate of the Blackfish.
But satisfying as it is for us to see Jaime treat the Freys and Sybelle Spicer with the disdain that they deserve – was it really smart?
I mean, Freys are the Crown’s only real allies in the Riverlands, not to mention vengeful and spiteful. I’d wager that after this, they are going to send the prisoners Jaime demanded that they transfer to the Crown under insufficient guard, those are going to escape, etc. Not to mention, that ransoming those prisoners may be a little premature.
And since Sybelle is the daughter of Maggy the Frog (or a granddaughter?) and seems to know her potions, she might do some damage too, with magic being on the rise and all.
Confiding in a BwB spy, after Jaime himself observed repeatedly that most people of the Riverlands have no cause to love the new regime and Lannisters in particular, was just a cherry on top. I hope beyond hope that Genna somehow survives this blunder, because I like her and she is supposed to be smart.
@60 Aerona Greyjoy:
Yes, that is an interesting parallel. And, of course,Tywin had been pretty much an absentee parent while Jaime was young and they mostly lived far from each other once Jaime came of age, so even discounting Tywin’s cold and distant personality, it would make sense that Jaime wouldn’t have been devastated by his father’s death.
And yet, Jaime grieves for him, even though he doesn’t want to aknoweldge it. Otherwise, why be so angry at Tyrion for the patricide? After all, Jaime didn’t really care about Joff’s death and whether Tyrion was guilty of it.
Oh, and Sansa and Arya are every bit as viable heirs as Bran and Rickon! More than the latter , even, since they’d be able to contribute to eventual Stark renaissance instead of just being figureheads.
I honestly don’t understand why the “Stark name” issue always crops up concerning them, when in this very book LF helpfully explained to Sansa how such things work in Westeros.
How Harry Hardyng, whose _grandmother_ was an Arryn, would become Harrold Arryn, the Young Falcon, should he inherit the Vale. That’s how they have such absurdly ancient dynasties. They are not strictly patrilineal.
Oh, and of course, we have Lady Waynwood, whose sons bear her name and are her heirs, Lady Mormont and her daughters ditto, etc.
So, naturally, should one of the Stark girls inherit with the help of Stark supporters, her children would also bear her name and not that of her husband.
In case of being conquered by enemies who forcibly marry a female heir in order to legitimise their own rule, or some such, it could be different, of course.
Although I would love to have Leigh immediately launch into Dance with Dragons, I agree with some here that “The Mystery Knight” is very complimentary if read prior to Dance. Many of my friends who have never read Dunk and Egg do not understand the many angles GRRM works in Dance. Princess and The Queen and The Rogue Prince are both very fascinating. But, they both clearly come after “A Dance With Dragons,” and prior to the forthcoming, “The Winds of Winter.” Speaking of which, I certainly hope “The Winds of Winter” will be released by the time Leigh is finished with Dance. It seems like it’ll be a year before she catches up, since Dance is much longer than Feast (70+ chapters).
However, first I would love to read a recap post. I think those are my favorite posts to read. A final summation on the major plot lines and character developments.
@67 –
I’m going to give Jaime a bit of a pass on the Tysha thing because a) he thinks it’s going to be the last time he sees his brother and he wants to clear the record – that’s pretty natural. The other thing is that yes, Tyrion is at his lowest, but as much as it hurts him I think there’s some kindness in telling him that Tysha really did love him. It’s important for Tyrion to know that he’s capable of receiving romantic love.
As far as Jaime acting as a check on Cersei’s power – why would Jaime think he could check her? She’s given no indication that she’ll take any guidance from him. He’s doing far more good controlling the rest of the Lannister army and bringing the Riverlands into the fold in a far more peaceful and reasonable way than they could have expected.
@69: The lord commander of the Kingsguard still sits on the Small Council. Moreover, he intended to do more then check her power, he thought about what he would need to do in order to remove her from her position of Regent which is a real possibility.
@70 – Right, but he didn’t think about removing her until he had time in the Riverlands. His story in AFfC is so much about finding out who he IS now and part of that discovery is that he does have it in him to be a leader and while he might not want power he might be the right person to have it. If he never leaves KL, I don’t think he gets there. He needed to make that break with Cersei.
I very much doubt that the Others are the reason for the long winters. That would imply that they are also response for the equally-long summers, and that makes no sense. They may exacerbate the winters, but I do not think that they are the cause of them.
I always figured that the Others were a co-occurring variable with the long winters – something is causing both of those things.
Yes, we encountered a Pate at the Crossroads Inn Warphanage. And many others hither and thither, mostly peasnats, including but not limited to Tommen’s whipping boy, the armorer who outfitted Dunk in The Hedge Knight, and two men of the Night’s Watch. It’s a really popular name in Westeros.
I’ve long shared your anger at the self-destructive idiocy of destroying the crops and croplands you’ll need, and now it’s truly coming home to roost with winter obviously arriving (even if not yet heralded by a white raven).
@73
Do the Others cause magical long winters, or does the presence of magic
allow their kind to flourish and grow in power? Did killing the dragons
cause the magic of this world to wain, or was it the waining of magic that allowed the dragons to be killed? It is a conundrum, but I thing you’ve got it right. Something magical has been reborn (or awoken) in this world, and it didn’t start with Danny’s dragons.
@72, The summers aren’t unnaturally long. The regular seasons occur when not in the throes of Winter.
@76: They just had a 10-year summer that ended at the start of ACOK. How is that not unnaturally long?
They CALL it summer, but it isn’t the actual season. Ned states in AGOT that they have “summer snows” which indicates to me that they have the actual seasons, annually.
They just also have mystical snow events that overtake the top of the continent and even effect the rest of the continent to such an extent, that they call it winter, but it’s not the actual season of winter that’s influenced by the angle of the planet and distance from the sun.
So there are two weather patterns competing here.
The standard seasons, influence by the angle of the planet and distance from the sun.
The magic seasons, now referred to as “seasons*” influenced by the Others. The Maesters use the influence of that magic to determine when the seasons* begin and end.
So the summer* that just ended, wasn’t an actual period of endless summer. It was a magical season when the effect of the Others was at it’s lowest, and in that season* there were regular seasons, influenced by angle of the planet and distance from the sun.
The magical seasons seem to last 5-10 years or so, but I believe the last time The Others were seen was a thousand years ago…so I’m not so sure that The Others have anything to do with the magical seasons.
@78
Sure, they have summer snows – in the North. There’s been no mention of it anywhere else. The North is pretty much defined by its cold climate, so I wouldn’t want to draw any conclusions about the rest of the world from that. (I mean, I live in Sweden and we sometimes get snow in May, when it’s considered to be late spring, or in early fall. If you put the North as a little bit colder than here, occasional summer snows are not unthinkable.)
In the rest of Westeros, everything seems to suggest that it really has been summer for ten years. If there really was a more typical seasonal pattern underneath the magical long winter pattern, as you suggest, I’d expect mentions of there having been significant colder spells during this summer in other regions as well, like the Riverlands, Crownlands, or Westerlands at the very least.
@79. Seen South of the Wall, yes, North of the Wall, no.
@80, I can suspend disbelief for a lot of things, but not for a lack of an actual climate that has to exist independent of the wonky magically influenced weather.
@78 Aeryl- There are only winters every few years, and it has been a long time since winter has arrived in Westeros. Summer snows in the North do not indicate winter, simply snow in during the long summer. The weather patterns appear to be totally unrelated to the revolution of the planet around the sun (which does beg the question exactly how they define their calender- I believe they use a lunar calendar, but I’m not sure how they define a “year”). I’ve seen various attempts to explain the seasons scientifically, but I believe the bottom line is: “It’s magic”.
Full discussion in many places, including here:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88066-so-how-do-days-weeks-months-work-in-westeros/
@79 Tabby-The characters themselves have discussed that, with no clear answer. Early in this book (first Samwell chapter, I believe) Sam told Jon about his research into the Others. He found an association with it getting colder when they come, but no definitive answer about whether the cold caused them to come, or their coming caused the temperature to drop. But clearly the seasons progress independently of their activity, since they haven’t been seen in thousands of years yet there were still seasons in Westeros.
It seems that the maesters decide when the Season changes, since they then send white ravens all over the continent to say so. How they figure it out from the warm southwestern tip, I don’t know, unless the constellations shift?
Early in ACOK, white ravens arrived at Dragonstone and Winterfell to announce the “end of the long summer.” Now, roughly two years later hy human reckoning, Jaime expects one to announce the coming of winter. (((The one in KL at ADWD’s end probably arrived later, the overlapping timelines make it hard to say just when))) In conclusion…it’s confuzzling and weird and bluh.
Ack, someone please white out my spoiler! I whited it out and it was whited in the preview, but now isn’t. Grrr, I want my account back.
84 – Done. (At least, I think I got the right part — let me know if it isn’t.)
Thanks!!
Aerona, you could always just make a new account and be AeronaGreenjoy55.
Unless you’d prefer AeronaGreenjoyd5?
Feast always seemed like it ended so abruptly. And so did this Read.
I’d recommend the wrap up post and reading The Princess and the Queen, Leigh, since I think you’ll need to buy as much time as you can to not finish this before The Winds of Winter comes out. Though I doubt the book will come out first regardless.
And hey, there’s always The World of Ice and Fire.
I would suggest the following reading order – which is the same as the order of publication:
– The Mystery Knight (definitely should be read before A Dance with Dragons)
– A Dance with Dragons
– The Princess and the Queen
– The Rogue Prince (it’s also possible to flip the order, since The Rogue Prince is the prequel, though it was published after The Princess and the Queen)
– The World of Ice and Fire (which is not out yet, but should be released this month)
–
Agreed. Maybe, if we are lucky, D and E 4 will be out before we get too far.
I think I would’ve been a lot less confused while Reading The Princess and the Queen if I’d read The Rogue Prince first, though I couldn’t have gotten to either of them without being able to constantly check the relevant genealogy online. I don’t know if GRRM intended them to be read in a particular order, since each is in a thematic.anthology whose publication date probably depended on multiple factors even with him as an editor. in other words, I suggest flipping the order of those two.
Hey all,
So, it turns out I will be doing the Dunk & Egg story “The Mystery Knight” next, which most folks seem to agree is the proper thing.
However, I will also be taking a sabbatical week, so there will be no post today. Part 1 of the D&E story should go up next Thursday (the 9th). Until then, cheers!
Leigh – any chance for a brief FFC wrap up before you roll into TMK?
excellent- this will give me time to get it on my Kindle and read it in the nick of time!
Who is this Nick and who elected him to represent time?
@81 – My favorite series takes place on a world carried on the backs of four elephants standing on a giant turtle. I can accept magically-induced climate.
@96 IndependentGeorge
Actually, technically speaking climate remains unaffected. The different climate zones are what you’d expect, from polar climate towards the pole to tropical climate and deserts towards the equator.
It’s the seasons that are wonky as a really wonky thing.
i love how jaime is dressing down Sybell and telling her what a bitch she is…. despite the fact that he’s just as guilty of treason as she is. He scorns and insults the freys, when he’s the one who’s there to reward them and the westerlings for betraying their king and making it so that guest right will never be held sacred ever again. he’s there to uphold the law and order of a king he knows is not the rightfull king, because jaime was the one to make sure he never would be. he’s also willingly going along with the notion of rewarding oathbreakers despite knowing how fucking despicable they are. in other words, he’s become like the rest of aerys kingsguard, and hides behind his oaths to justify doing things he knows are wrong. upholding tyrrany under the guise of doing his duty.
guess you did become more like arthur dayne than the smiling knight after all, huh jaime?
A craven who hides behinds oaths to justify doing something he knows is wrong.
I am not going to argue that Jaime is a good person or is motivated by much other than self/family interest, but I do think his slaying of Aerys wasn’t necessarily a breach of honor – if anything, breaking his oaths was perhaps the (ironically) honorable thing to do in that scenario, given what he knew.
Hunny! woot! : )
Did Tywin also plan Robb’s marriege to Jeyne or he just used the chance when it appeared?
It was also fun to read thkughts that LF is no danger ’cause he has no lands and thus no banners to call. =D